Quartz Extreme Questions...

mindbend

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OK, so my single biggest complaint with X looks like it finally has something resembling an answer. Let there be light.

Some questions.

1. Did anyone see its performance in webcast or video or anything? Or have anecdotal evidence to suggest speed?
2. Do we know if it applies speed gains across the board to all apps, just the Finder, only Cocoa apps?

OK, I guess that's just two questions, not "some".

Also, here's a little mini-rant which will not make some people happy. Do not read below if you don't want to waste time with a side issue or be annoyed with painful realities of business.

As for Quartz Extreme and G3s and G3s in general, G3s are dead. Apple could not care less about making G3 owners happy with graphics performance updates. That would be self defeating. The entire computer industry is built around a model of constantly devising new technologies and convincing us we need them, but more importantly, that we need new computers to use said technologies. G3 owners will never, ever see excellent graphics performance in OS X. They simply must accept that reality and decide what to do about it. I recommend buying the best G4 you can possibly stand to pay for. What really clued me into this harsh reality was a seminar on DV in Chicago's Apple store two years ago right when the first G4 was introduced. I had a desktop G3, like a 233 or something. I was first introduced to Final Cut at that seminar and asked the presenter (forget his name, but man was he good. Very motivational. I was starting to "drink the koolaid".) if I could run FCP on my 233 G3. I knew that technically I could, but I was at the very bottom of the technically possible list. He coldly and directly told me in front of everyone to dump the G3. I said, "But can't I at least run it sort of...". "Dump it" he repeated.

His point was simple, carpenters don't get hammers with balsa wood grips. If you take your work seriously, get a freaking real hammer with a stainless steel grip, otherwise you're just jerking yourself around. (Note: this message is for professionals in the industry, not for dabblers, browsers, spreadsheet junkies, hobbiests, e-mailers, authors or others that don't require the absolute best performance from their "tool".)
 
Originally posted by mindbend
1. Did anyone see its performance in webcast or video or anything? Or have anecdotal evidence to suggest speed?
2. Do we know if it applies speed gains across the board to all apps, just the Finder, only Cocoa apps?

I haven't personally seen it, but I think that I can safely say that it applies to the Quartz rendering engine as a whole, which means it will apply to all applications that use Quartz rendering, and the displaying of the things on the screen itself. Talk about a big boost.
 
I believe the term you are looking for is "planned obsolescence".

Yeah, as tempting as the low priced iBook is these days, i can't bring myself to buy anything with a G3 processor in it.... this 10.2 / Jaguar update clinches it.

To answer your questions in a purely speculative manner...

1. no and no.
2. It sounds as if the performance gain will be at OS level, meaning that everything in OSX should see a boost from it.
 
On the apple Jagual website it says:

"Jaguar lets Quartz offload compositing tasks to a supported* video card..."

and then at the bottom:

"*nVidia: GeForce2MX, GeForce3, GeForce4 Ti, GeForce4 or GeForce4MX. ATI: any AGP Radeon card. 32MB VRAM recommended for optimum performance."

Is this to say that my 18 month old Sawtooth G4/400 with its ATI Rage128 AGP video card is now unsupported?? I was really looking forward to finally getting some snappy performance out of the OS X GUI.

Does anyone know anything more about this?
 
Originally posted by QuadrupleJ
Is this to say that my 18 month old Sawtooth G4/400 with its ATI Rage128 AGP video card is now unsupported?? I was really looking forward to finally getting some snappy performance out of the OS X GUI.

Does anyone know anything more about this?
I think it still will be faster, but not as much as it could be.

But you could just buy a new supported graphics card.
I think as soon as 10.2 is out Apple will have some cards in their online shop (at least I hope so).
 
But I shouldn't have to buy new hardware. The stuff I have is only 1 1/2 years old for crying out loud.

Okay, I'll wait till 10.2 actually comes out before I winge too much.

-J
 
Yeah, bummer for me too. My TiBook has an ATI Rage Mobility 128 or something. I can't just replace that card.

Oh well. It's not like I went into the purchase thinking, gee, I demand that two years down the road the latest greatest updates still apply to my old hardware.

Still, one can hope, though no longer. =)

-Rob
 
Originally posted by QuadrupleJ
But I shouldn't have to buy new hardware. The stuff I have is only 1 1/2 years old for crying out loud.

Okay, I'll wait till 10.2 actually comes out before I winge too much.

-J
1 1/2 is really old for computer hardware. I know, Mac users like to say that their Mac lasts longer than any PC, but if the Mac can live longer than a PC before it is outdated, it only means PCs are 'evolving' at a much faster pace, isn't it?

You only have to buy a new graphics card, for crying out loud. ;)

And you can still stay with your old card. 10.2 won't be any slower than 10.1 on that. It only will be much faster on a better card
 
From all the threads on here about 10.2, I still can't figure out if utilizing Quartz Extreme will be possible with 66Mhz PCI video cards. I've been pretty happy with my G3 400's OSX performance, and if I can get an additional video boost, I might just upgrade the RAM, and get a new video card... Can anyone clue me in here.

I'm sorry if this has been covered, I just can't seem to get an answer straight enough for my inexperienced head...

Thanks,
jason
 
Originally posted by jbromer
From all the threads on here about 10.2, I still can't figure out if utilizing Quartz Extreme will be possible with 66Mhz PCI video cards. I've been pretty happy with my G3 400's OSX performance, and if I can get an additional video boost, I might just upgrade the RAM, and get a new video card... Can anyone clue me in here.

I'm sorry if this has been covered, I just can't seem to get an answer straight enough for my inexperienced head...

Thanks,
jason

I remeber during the keynote Jobs stated that you'll need an APG 2x slot or better.
 
Originally posted by jbromer
From all the threads on here about 10.2, I still can't figure out if utilizing Quartz Extreme will be possible with 66Mhz PCI video cards.

You need an AGP card, cause Quartz Extreme uses functionality only found in the AGP bus, it doesn't work on PCI.
 
But I shouldn't have to buy new hardware. The stuff I have is only 1 1/2 years old for crying out loud.

Please. My TiBook 500 is only 13 months old, and it's already obsolete in terms of graphics performance. At least you have the option of adding a ATI Radeon 7000 for $115. The TiBook has no such option.

It doesn't really bother me much. This is the natural order of things in the technology world. Apple is much more accomodating than others, so I can't complain too much. Bottom line - if you want the new bells and whistles of the latest OS technology, you're going to have to ante up for the hardware to go with it.

Still, 10.2 will bring performance optimizations to all computers - it's just those with AGP and the supported cards will see an even bigger increase in speed.

If it's important to you - sell you Mac on eBay, and use the proceeds to buy a new one.
 
Apple didn't choose to just 'dump' G3 owners, and people who have 16 or *gasp* 8 megs of video ram. The reason Extreme Quartz isn't supported for those computers is simply because, the hardware can't handle it.

I doubt the engineers at Apple sat down at the Extreme Quartz meeting and said "screw those with G3's and ATI Rage's."
 
this is just another reason to buy a tower.. EXPANDABILITY!!!!! a quick 300 bucks and i can get a ati 8500 and then smash threw 10.2 like it was hot butter!
 
You know, my G3/266 tower is 4 years old, and I run OS X just fine with my 6 MB ATI Rage something or another video card.

I can't say that it's really smooth if I minimize a window, but on the other hand I can hold down shift.


As far as supported graphics cards go, they're probably saying that if you want to see a real performance boost, then you need to have a new graphics card. The older ATI-blah-128's aren't fast enough to or aren't capable of doing quartz geometry calculations faster than the CPU.

- shrill -
 
Yeah my G3 266 iMac is approaching 4 years old and believe me, I've seen all the upsets. First there was the DV iMacs that I missed out on, then there was the sinking feeling when 10 came out that I wouldn't be able to use it (it was really too slow until 10.1). I did get a break then with 10.1 because it was faster but I couldn't use my USB external hard drive because it wouldn't mount in OSX.

I don't know why people expect software to get faster on the same system. Everyone complains that OS X is slower that OS 9. Of course it will be on the same hardware. Think of the top of the line computer in 9's day and it was just as slow if not slower than the top of the line OS X computer. Very few things can get more features without loosing speed. Quartz Extreme is allowing the system as a whole to get faster while adding more features elsewhere. The speed it's self is not a feature of X.2

also, those of you with 13 month old computers remember that they will be 18 by the time this comes out and that is the life span of a computer.

So I suppose you could say I'm luckier than all of you guys. I've felt the heartbreak of a computer 2X fast selling for the same price I got mine at (4 months later), I've seen Laptops 2X fast selling for the same I got mine at and I've seen flatscreen iMacs selling for the same price as I got mine at. And now, I'll be looking at a new computer so I'll just wait till September when I can get it with 10.2 pre-installed.
 
If Quartz Extreem won't run on older graphics systems because they simply aren't powerful enough, I can handle that. But if it's just apple not being bothered to make it work for them, then that would really piss me off. I don't expect an 18 month old computer to be cutting edge in terms of performance, but I do think that its hardware should be supported wherever possible.

Just my two cents.

-J
 
I think all these Quartz Extreme speculations are way too premature. It's likely that Quartz (non-Extreme) will be optimized in 10.2, so it should be faster than what we have now. Also, people kept forgetting that the Finder has been updated to allow multithreading, so we should see less of the "spinning beachball of heck".

I would reserve my judgement till 10.2 comes out. I seriously doubt Apple would drop support for machines that are more than one year old like that. Not to mention that the iBook and the CRT iMac don't even support QE presently.

-B
 
I sold my iMac 450 for $600 two days before Jaguar was announced. I think I dodged a bullet.

New G4 based Mac here I come!
 
Since this is a Rumors board, I'll go ahead and speculate wildly just for fun.

I've heard from a couple of people who have prelease Betas that 10.2 has increased Finder spead mildly, say 10-15%. I doubt that it will get much better than that in the end. This is Non-Extreme by the way. I have no info on Extreme speeds.
 
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