WARNING! Techtool Deluxe Damages Jaguar

J

JeffCGD

Registered
IMPORTANT WARNING!

Do NOT use Techtool Deluxe (Applecare versions for BOTH OS9 or OSX Native have the same effect) on OSX Jaguar 10.2.x.

It irreparably modifies something in the guts of OSX that will allow ANY user to trash ANY user created file or folder, regardless of the permissions on that user created file or folder. All the attributes of the file or folder remain the same, but ANY user will be able to trash it and empty the trash.

Apple Disc Utility CANNOT repair or detect this damage, nor can fsck in single user mode.
The only solution is a re-installation of OSX.

BAD FORM Micromat (the makers of Techtool), for not warning us.

You have been warned.
 
I ended up in this mess in my efforts to create a Mac OSX boot disc for my utilities (since one of our G4 workstations at work had suffered some damage during a crash), using BootCD (NOTE: There is NOTHING wrong with BootCD; it had nothing to do with this problem). As well as the usual stuff that gets put on the boot CD, I added my own utilities, including the OSX native upgraded version of Techtool Deluxe, which came as part of my Applecare support package.

The Boot CD was created, and I booted from it and ran both Apple disc utility and Techtool Deluxe on my own machine, in order to test it out for work. It was after I restarted I noticed that I could trash (but not access, or in any other way modify), other users' files and folder that I should not be able to. (see attached screenshot below).

Initially I thought that Apple Disc Utility had somehow incorrectly changed the permission on my drive (as Techtool deluxe made no mention that it had changed anything), and I suspected it was something to do with having Apple Disc Utility run on the custom boot disc.
I contacted BootCD's author Charles, and together we worked through every scenario he could think of, until finally Charles said "I haven't seen anything like this before, it looks like Darwin itself has been affected". So we are both at a loss.

I have since run the OSX 10.2.5 update, in the hopes that a small miracle might occur, and that it would be fixed in the process. Unfortunately the problem remains.
 
Usually you would want to see some out side verification before issuing blanket warnings. I have checked three systems running 10.2.x that have had Techtool Deluxe run on them (that have multiple users). None of them display the problem that you are saying is a global (all inclusive, applies to everyone) problem.

Before issuing such a dire warning, maybe you should do a survey of people who have and use Techtool Deluxe to see if anyone else is having the problems you are. Without those types of controls, it could just as easily be something else that you are doing that you don't currently believe is a problem.

I have never run Techtool Deluxe or Disk Utility from a CD made using BootCD. Maybe you should reconsider that factor. Have you run Techtool Deluxe from it's original CD on an uneffected system and recreated the same problem (surely the first of the scenarios you should have tried and a more valid reason for issuing a warning)?
 
Racer X

Having already lost 2 workstations to this effect, I'm afraid I am not willing to gamble on loosing our one remaining production workstation at work.

Running Techtool Deluxe OR Disc Utility from BootCD is exactly the same as running them from their original CD's (the Applecare CD and the Apple Installation disc one respectively), as in both cases they are running as root from a boot CD.

Please note that I worked with the author of BootCD to see if Disc Utility was the cause, and we have ruled it out.

I can come to no other conclusion that Techtool Deluxe is the cause when the same effect is caused by the OS9 version of Techtool Deluxe on one system, and the OSX version on another.

While I welcome your feedback on your unaffected systems (Do you have multiple partitions, by the way?), I'm afraid I must stand by my recommendation to avoid Techtool Deluxe until I can see hard proof that it is NOT responsible.

Once Bitten, Twice Shy.

TWICE Bitten... well, you work it out.
 
First and foremost, you have removed Techtool Deluxe from the CD/OS environment that it came in which makes your usage of the utility outside the usage intended by Micromat/AppleCare (I'm sure that both of you took that into consideration).

Second, what makes you think that your new boot CD is providing these applications the same privileges that the Apple and MicroMat CDs are giving them? Should those tools be run as root from a drive that is not set up to recognize the permission structure of the drive having the tools run on them? When repairing systems and rebuilding users, I have always thought you needed to set up users in NetInfo Manager first... how do you do this in any meaningful way on a CD? Your boot CD thinks it is a Mac OS X drive and you are repairing a drive that it does not see as having any users on it... this has got to raise some red flags in my book.

Also, as someone who has multiple partitions on almost every system that I set up, I am also aware that the usage of fsck/fsck_hfs commands on such a system is very important to the safety of the drives. This would also give me paws given your problems. If this command line tool needs such care in how it is used and from where, wouldn't it be logical to think that the same would apply when using utility apps? You know, if these repairs are being done with an OS on a CD that thinks that the other disks on this system are just additional drives and that the only user is root, I can totally see where the permissions would end up screwed up.

I would suggest that both you and Charles should find out what Apple and MicroMat have done to deal with such a problem on their CDs (though they may not be much help as you are using their software in ways they had not recommended).


Once again, I am going to state that I have checked systems that have both multiple users (the only type that seems to be effected by this problem) and multiple partitions that have had at least the Mac OS X version of Techtool Deluxe run on them within the operating conditions set forth by the manufactures. On these types of systems (at least the ones I can get to on a weekend) I have yet to see this problem.

Given this, I would have to say that because the only difference in usage seems to involve BootCD, I would NOT recommend the usage of BootCD to create a CD to run utilities (of any type) from until the permissions problem is solved.

This has been a very enlightening thread, specially as I was considering doing the same thing as Jeff using BootCD. Given the results, I think I'll stick to using a number of CDs instead of making one bad one.
 
I will be taking all of RacerX's concerns and suggestions under advisement. I have already emailed Micromat's technical support team, and will be contacting Applecare tomorrow when they open (they have discontinued their weekend support in my part of the world).

I still believe that at least Disc Utility should be fine running from a bootable OSX volume (in this case BootCD) as root, as this is how it is running on the Apple Installation disc. In fact it HAS to run as root to be able to have the permissions to perform it's full functions. That said, I can see how Techtool Deluxe might not be designed to work in the same way, although it would need permissions much like that of a root user to perform it's tasks, which are above and beyond that of Disc Utility.

I will keep you posted on developments.
 
Jeff..You might want to post this over at the Macfixit forum>utilities. This is where Micromat Tech hangs out. WALT:D
 
underdog, thanks for the tip.

RacerX.
Looks like you are right concerning the hfs system components. I did a search for them on my drive, and it looks like they were indeed modified during the time this effect started.
The modified files were:

hfs.fs (a package)
&
mount_synthhfs

Are you able to shed any more light on what each of these files do? Obviously they handle access to the hfs file system. I am wondering if I can 'transplant' them from a healthy machine (copying them to my machine while it is booted in OS9, then restarting off an Apple Install CD to set their permissions correctly - I have done this successfully in the past when a system alert sound got corrupted).

I suspect my only real solution is a complete rebuild of my system, but I would like to be able to make sure I know exactly what happened, so I can avoid anything similar in the future.
 
Honestly, I have never worked with those files before, so I'm not sure what a transplant would do. I have done what you are talking about as far as the general transplant idea on systems with great success in the past, so I would imagine that what you want to try is still the best course of action at this point. The time savings of trying it out first if it does work seems worth it verses just doing a complete rebuild.

I'm not sure that I have any other ideas that you haven't thought of yourself. I'll ask around though to see if anyone else has any thoughts on the subject.
 
Thanks RacerX.
I will of course back up everything before I try the transplant, because - since it is a core file system component - if it fails I expect it will do so SPECTACULARLY. If it works, I will be smiling.
Bit of additional info: The CD of Techtool Deluxe I used on the machine at work was a clone of the genuine Techtool Deluxe CD, not one that had been fiddled with.
I also spoke to Apple Support last night, and, once again, they showed a frustrating lack of knowledge about the guts of their new OS. They had never seen anything like it before either.
 
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