Apple and Trustworthy Computing

touchoff

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I was just wondering...Does anyone know what Apple's position is on Trustworthy Computing. I guess it's something that a lot of software vendors and hardware manufactures are planning to support. I even heard that Linux was joining in as well. But I haven't heard anything from apple.

Does anyone know?
 
A Microsoft marketing phrase trying to veer attention away from the fact that Windows has more vulnerabilities than the new G5's have holes.

bear, feeling cynical this morning after helping a neighbor patch up yet another security hole on her Windoze installation.
 
<a href="http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html">Check this out</a>
From what I understand it's security plan using hardware and software to help protect data. One example I was given was that say you send an e-mail to someone - using TCPA (Trusted Computing Platform Alliance) you could specify how many times that e-mail got forwarded, copied printed, so on.
 
No, trustworthy computer really _is_ just an internal Microsoft 'strategy', which meant that "Now, we're paying a little bit more attention to security issues in our software, too.". So: Apple does have nothing to do with it. I gather your question's really about

Apple and the TCPA.

And there I must say I'm reading what Apple has done, and I like what they've done so far. (iTunes, iPods etc.)
 
It's Microsoft's WindowsMedia DRM meets EVERYTHING.
Basically it is a way of controlling every thing about the computer. If they want, a company (with enough weight) can just stop you from using certain files on your computer if you connect to the net. And it only takes once connection, and you can't open them.

Microsoft want everyone to pay yearly subscriptions for everything, and never actually buy anything. That way, you stop paying, you stop using.
 
Pengu, sounds like M$. That way instead of paying $200 once for XP, my Dad would have payed about $600 by now because he's been using it for a while. :rolleyes:

Touchoff, seems like Apple has that built in already, they just didn't use a M$ 'excuse' to call it by.
 
Okay, but now we're expanding the initial (misinterpreted/mislabelled) question to about anything that anyone could ever hate about Microsoft. And that's bad for the thread. ;)
 
Is everyone forgetting that Apple is using DRM (Digital Rights Management) ?? Uh hello? iTunes Music Store. The AAC encoded music files have a digital signature tired to your account. Yes, Apple is being quite liberal with it, you can authorize up to 3 computers at the same time and deauthorize them at will. But it is still a way of controlling your files. Do we really know what goes on behind the scenes when iTunes talks to the servers? Do we really know what information is being sent and what Apple does with the data?

Microsoft want everyone to pay yearly subscriptions for everything, and never actually buy anything. That way, you stop paying, you stop using.

No one seems to have mentioned .Mac yet. Email, iDisk, anti-virus, all those everyday common uses, now are on a subscription terms.
 
Ok well i WOULD have put a quote in from lycander about itunes talking to servers, but I'm stuck with a stopgap-os9/ie cus my X.2 got scratched, and i have to wait for a copy from a friend, which won't select text like any normal application. anyways. Yes, apple uses DRM. but as you said, it is quite liberal. As they have said themselves. It is designed to "Help consumers do the right thing". And as much as people discuss it, I somehow doubt that iTunes will delete your tracks if apple tells it to. And as for getting off topic, No, the topic didnt initially mention Microsoft, but MS and Intel are the two biggest players in the "Trustworthy Computing Alliance", and it is linked closely to DRM, so i think it is all relevant.
 
I like bashing M$ :)

While we're discussing trusted computing, someone mentioned Linux using DRM. Linus Torvalds supports DRM only because he believes that the option should be available. He's not going to say "No you can't put DRM in my kernel" because the kernel is public property and if someone wanted to they can insert such code into the kernel and release it. The idea is to make Linux viable if that day comes when hardware manufacturers build in whatever trusted computing technology into their hardware. The Linux community doesn't want to be left out and become obsolete so we have to embrace it now.

Apple does a good job of hiding these complicated matters from their users. Really, does anyone have the free time to review a draft on trusted computing and learn how it works? I'm sure we all would rather have it work transparently in the background and we go about our business, but document it so those like me who want to know what goes on. Apple so far has done exactly that. How many iTunes Music Store customers even know that the music they purchase is already DRM enabled? That's just a rhetorical question to illustrate that the general user population does not need to know and can live a normal life without ever knowing.

Microsoft on the other hand, the minute they mention a word to the effect of "secure/security" or "trust" as in trusted computing, alram bells go off and the general public immediately become skeptics. Why? Because history has taught us that when ever Microsoft talks of security it's only to point out their flaws and not a solution.
 
Ok one last poke at M$ I promise ;)

You Mac users might not have heard about this so I'll give you a quick little fun story.

When Miscrosoft first introduce the .Net (dot Net) platform, it confused the crap out of everyone. Businessmen and IT dept managers didn't know what the hell it's suppose to be. Programmers knew that it's basically a Java rip off. MS tried to play it off as a business solution, but at the same time spoon fed it to developers as a new development platform. So everyone was singing a different tune and that caused confusion. Confusion that lead to a MAJOR slow down in the accpetance of .Net.

What I want you to get out of this story is:

.Net = WTF is it anyways?

Poor marketing dept at MS. How this relates to their trusted computing initiative is, it's going to be more confusion just like .Net. They try to make it become more than it really is and the customers get confused over it. Trusted computing is different than DRM. DRM caters to the music and video industry to protect media files from being ripped off and traded on the Internet. I don't wanna try to describe Trusted Computing because I don't really know what it is either. I've heard a couple different stories that give me different impressions.

Bottom line is I'm losing faith in commercial software. Businesses rely on commercial software in thinking that there's some gaurentee attached to it. Yes there is some gaurentee as with anything you put money down for. But you can't buy trust, which is what MS is trying to sell. Someone might be thinking that trust can be bought, like we buy insurance, but I never regarded insurance as a form of trust, possibly because I think money is the root of evil :)
 
whoa whoa whoa...TCPA also covers things like software, to make sure that software isn't pirated. I don't think anyone even read my example. This goes far beyond just protecting music...software, videos, anything that can be run on a computer. But did anyone read about the part that TCPA can be turned OFF.

As for .NET, I can explain that easily. It basically added capabilities to program in just about any language you wanted. How about that! You could create an application with C#, VB .NET, C++, and RPG IV - compile it and it would run. The same goes for ASP.NET you could write code for web sites in C# AND VB .NET (maybe more, not to sure on that) and ASP.NET "translates" the code to an HTML page. .NET isn't confusing if you took a little time to understand what it was exactly.
 
I do know what .Net is, I've worked with ASP, and played around with the .Net framework SDK and made some C# apps.

Have you seen the .Net commercials? Doesn't exactly spell out what you just said does it?
 
I actually read the FAQ, touchoff, and now I'm very concerned. I smell Big Brother and his Thought Cyber Police Army. (Here is a VB version of the above link, BTW: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html)

What is TCPA? It is a way for a business, a coalition, or whoever controls these "Fritz" chips (an excellent name, because they cause people to fritz when they learn what the chips do) to assume control over your computer at will in the name of DRM. Microsoft and Intel are trying to be able to control everything in the massive computer market, excluding other developers and instituting their tyrannic rule.

TCPA and Palladium will allow Microsoft, or your system administrator, or whoever has the right permissions, to delete "illegal" files off your computer, against your will. This may be fine for pirated music, movies, or software, but where do they draw the line? What will stop them from actually putting a subscription model into place, and jacking up the price on it from a dollar per launch to, say, $20?

This is probably the best explanation: "...TCPA and Palladium do not so much provide security for the user as for the PC vendor, the software supplier, and the content industry. They do not add value for the user, but destroy it. They constrain what you can do with your PC in order to enable application and service vendors to extract more money from you. This is the classic definition of an exploitative cartel - an industry agreement that changes the terms of trade so as to diminish consumer surplus."

In this light, I don't see how Apple can join this coalition. Sure, they have limited DRM with the iTMS, but with Apple, it's about minimizing their control over your content. They only put DRM in place to get the RIAA to agree to the whole concept of the iTMS; do you think Apple wants to control what you do with the music you buy? Microsoft, however, wants to catch you, gut you, throw you out, and laugh at you for being broke. They want to extract as much money as they possibly can from your wallet with you being unable to do anything about it, and they want to control what you can do as they shaft you.

The only way I can see this working in any way besides horribly skewed and monopolistically is if the Fritz chips were controlled by a group, much like the UN. One or two countries don't make foreign policies for everyone to obey, a large group of representatives do. Sure, the US has enough weight to push around that we can usually get away with breaking UN policy, but we are not the final voice in world affairs. Microsoft would be like the US in this United Platforms: they have the most weight to push around, but they do not have the final say in a group composed of megalopolies like them, Intel, IBM, and Apple, as well as smaller developers and even a government agency or two. The final call must be democratically voted upon, or we will be helpless against the power of the Evil Empire.

Imagine this scenario: everything, and I mean everything, has computer chips in it, from large satellites to the door locks in your homes. Now, these chips all have TCPA embedded in them, and Microsoft controls the TCPA. What is to stop them from deciding they want world power and controlling everything until they get it? Sure, it's illegal, but the police and the military can't do anything because the chips in their humvees, machine guns, and even HQ doors have suddenly stopped allowing their host devices to function. A court of law can't pursue Microsoft because they have no way of making them show up in court, and they can't get near Redmond to bring court to them. Suddenly Microsoft controls the world, and the term "third world country" takes on a global scale.

Everyone on this board, and everyone who uses a computer at all, should take a stance against TCPA. It is manipulative, tyrannical and anti-competitive, and it stands to benefit only those who control it.
 
I'm in no way advocating TCPA and I'm glad to see that you are not either arden - But I don't want to see anyone go overboard, but because there is a computer chip in something does not automatically infer that it is controlled by Microsoft. In fact(this is just a blurb) but the Linux community is closley following TCPA and will possibly integrate it in the Linux OS.

I really don't foresee Apple jumping on the TCPA band-wagon, but I also start to wonder how this will affect interoperability between operating systems if someone sends me a "proctected" file or e-mail - will I still be able to read it? This may not sound too big, but it's a big enough deal to make that user who just started using Mac OS or Linux to go back to Windows just so he is able to get his data/message across.

In the FAQ, I do believe it says somewhere that TCPA can be TURNED OFF. So the whole "security/protection" garbage won't be running. But you are right, this dosen't significantly benefit the user. It's an answer to the problems of pirated software, music, movies, etc. that these fat-cat companies are loosing so much money on.

But Microsoft will not control the world. Unless the rest of the world and people like us allow it. (on a side note - it just really pisses me off how computer illiterate some people are, and mostly cause they don't give a crap as long as their satellite TV works, they can take their kids to soccer practice, and get a paycheck....)

But again, I'm not really for TCPA, cause I don't really understand it ALL myself, but we can't really stop it right now. All we can do is oppose and inform.
 
Lycander - are you like kiddin around or what?

Have you seen the .Net commercials? Doesn't exactly spell out what you just said does it?

Uh, no really are you kiddin around or something....do you really think what they say in the commercials is what .NET does. That if I push over 20 wine racks and I instantly change the price while someone is doing inventory?? Well it can, but there is quite a bit more to .NET than that.

I'm not a .NET expert or anything, and I'm sure not a programmer. All I did was attend a launch event and pay careful attention and realized what they were demonstrating. And I followed up on some reading. but the commercials?? Give me a break.
 
That's probably the point Lyc was getting at, the commercials advertise a product but they don't say what it does. "Here, here's an iWidget. It looks cool, and it's all shiny. Go buy one."

The G5 commercial states that the G5 is the most powerful personal computer on Earth. Despite the whole blowing-up-the-house part, it gets its message across loud and clear. The .NET commercials never do that.

One of my pet peeves is commercials that tell you to get or ask about a product (like prescription drugs), but don't actually tell you what the drug is for. "Ask your doctor if Nexium is right for you." Well, I might, but I don't know what it does! That's the way those .NET commercials are. "It can help you out, but what it actually does is confidential and we're not allowed to share that." And I still don't know what it does (and frankly, I don't care).

As for TCPA, I really don't care who's on the other end of the Fritz chip, I don't want someone to have the ability to poke around on my hard drive and manipulate stuff against my will. I would take to the Fritz chip with a screwdriver or a soldering iron if I had a computer with one, and "other parties" were manipulating my computer.
 
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