gay marriage

octane said:
Here's a little puzzle for you:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?..

In order for this "puzzle" to work you must first answer this:
Who's God? :rolleyes:

If you mean the general explanation of God across religions let me solve this kids puzzle for you:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. You don't know His will! He IS omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. He IS able but you don't know His will!
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? He IS able but you don't know His will...
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? He IS able but you don't know His will... Call Him God because He IS and you are a mere mortal as we all are :p

:D :)
 
Hulkaros, simply saying that being gay is wrong or not natural doesn't fly any more, whether you become gay through environmental factors or are born gay, fact is that there are LOTS of gay people out there (and possibly on this forum).Sticking your head in the sand and saying it isn't natural won't get us anywhere. You can't make these people straight and I'm sure that lots of gay people are happy with the way they are and wouldn't want to change their sexuality. That said, open discussion is the only way that people can arrive at informed decisions. Issues like gay marriage do force people to rethink their attitudes and think about where they stand. I don't agree with gay marriage purely because it is a stepping stone to adoption and subversion of the heterosexual family unit.
 
hulkaros said:
In order for this "puzzle" to work you must first answer this:
Who's God? :rolleyes:

If you mean the general explanation of God across religions let me solve this kids puzzle for you:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. You don't know His will! He IS omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. He IS able but you don't know His will!
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? He IS able but you don't know His will...
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? He IS able but you don't know His will... Call Him God because He IS and you are a mere mortal as we all are :p

:D :)

How profound.

I'm moved .. no, really! :D

It's a bit of a get-out though isn't it? This god-moves-in-mysterious-ways rubbish.

If I was to see god, I'd ask how she copes with all of the work-related stress.

Does she see a vocational therapist?..
 
What!! God a woman??? Everyone knows that HE wears a long white outfit, has a long white beard with matching hair. He always has his staff with him and he knows everything and he is really wise.....hang on, GOD=Gandalf
 
lilbandit said:
Hulkaros, simply saying that being gay is wrong or not natural doesn't fly any more, whether you become gay through environmental factors or are born gay, fact is that there are LOTS of gay people out there (and possibly on this forum).Sticking your head in the sand and saying it isn't natural won't get us anywhere. You can't make these people straight and I'm sure that lots of gay people are happy with the way they are and wouldn't want to change their sexuality. That said, open discussion is the only way that people can arrive at informed decisions. Issues like gay marriage do force people to rethink their attitudes and think about where they stand. I don't agree with gay marriage purely because it is a stepping stone to adoption and subversion of the heterosexual family unit.

Look: Some times talk is just air... And in this particular thread, talk will get you nowhere :rolleyes: Talk all you want... I had enough of this "air" :p Now, let me put my head back to the sand... :)
 
lilbandit said:
What!! God a woman??? Everyone knows that HE wears a long white outfit, has a long white beard with matching hair. He always has his staff with him and he knows everything and he is really wise.....hang on, GOD=Gandalf

You mean edX: admin the white!.. :D
 
octane said:
How profound.

I'm moved .. no, really! :D

It's a bit of a get-out though isn't it? This god-moves-in-mysterious-ways rubbish.

If I was to see god, I'd ask how she copes with all of the work-related stress.

Does she see a vocational therapist?..

God doesn't move in mysterious ways... We, humans do... The fact is that you don't know how He moves and even if you knew you would still could not understand His movement! :)

Ask Him whatever you want... The replies will not come... As for the work-related stress: He doesn't work... He simply IS...

He doesn't see anyone in particular... He sees everything! :D
 
hulkaros, problem here is that 'god' has no place in the legal issues involved. Many people do not believe in a god as you might. Some may believe in something, some in nothing. Some may use a different name, etc., etc..

Regardless if you like it or not, they have a right to do so (1st amendment). Just as so-called religious zealots (by that I mean anyone who forces their views upon another) have a right to have their beliefs.

They do not however have a right to force said beliefs upon another. Creating a law to ban something such as same-sex marriages would be doing just that. The reasons they give against it are moral objections (based on ficton/religious ideals). There hasn't been one good reason to deny this type of thing, other than people's bias beliefs or fear of the unknown/change.
 
MikeXpop said:
Oh please. Do you know how many kids out there are being teased in school, or being on the wrong end of predjudices? That really is a nonissue.

No! The question is do you know! Have you personally asked kids who have gay parents if that is the way they feel? Do you know kids that feel this way? I am guessing the you probably haven't. I on the other hand know three high school students (all from different families) who really don't mind/care/get teesed/have a problem that their parents/guardians are gay. so i don't think you can use that as a shield to hide behind

-From my point of view as a "child" adults don't ask, they assume
 
If homosexual people want to marry each other, let them. It's nobody's business but their own, no matter who tries to argue otherwise.
 
mdnky said:
hulkaros, problem here is that 'god' has no place in the legal issues involved. Many people do not believe in a god as you might. Some may believe in something, some in nothing. Some may use a different name, etc., etc..

Regardless if you like it or not, they have a right to do so (1st amendment). Just as so-called religious zealots (by that I mean anyone who forces their views upon another) have a right to have their beliefs.

They do not however have a right to force said beliefs upon another. Creating a law to ban something such as same-sex marriages would be doing just that. The reasons they give against it are moral objections (based on ficton/religious ideals). There hasn't been one good reason to deny this type of thing, other than people's bias beliefs or fear of the unknown/change.

About the God section of my answers: It was simply something between me and Octane... :) And not that God has anything to do with gay marriage :D So there :cool:
 
Arden said:
If homosexual people want to marry each other, let them. It's nobody's business but their own, no matter who tries to argue otherwise.

I wish Arden that this subject was that easy to solve :rolleyes: But it ain't :eek:

But because I see that this thread will keep going on, I will ask some REAL questions to the whole "free" gay community around here:
-What about the cases of parents making sex with their own children/family members?
-What about the cases of people who like to thief others?
-What about the cases of people who like to not only take drugs but spread them also, one way or another?
-What about the cases of people who carry guns like it's all over Western Cowboy films again?
-What about the cases of people who enjoy group sex?
-What about the cases of people who constantly bully other people around?
-What about the cases of people who take money in order to sell out themselves and other people/companies/whatever?
-What about the cases of people who cheat on their families sexually and in other ways?
-What about the cases of people who "make" sex to animals?
-What about the cases of people who enjoy being sexually abused or abuse others?
-What about this and that?

All the above questions and of course MANY more for the people who act that way, they too, think, believe, know that it is normal or at least it should be... If tomorrow we gave the above listed "people" the right to do so, will that hurt me? You Arden? The gay people? Anyone for that matter? And not just hurt us in the sort term but in the long term, down the road?

The only REAL answer is THAT WE DO NOT KNOW :mad: And that's the only universal truth wither anyone likes to believe or not! :eek:

What's next? Having people marry to animals? :rolleyes: Hey! After all it is their right! It is their personal right!

Yeah! Sure! Keep saying that to yourselves :mad: All we need is an Akira to solve our problems ::ha::
 
-What about the cases of parents making sex with their own children/family members?
That is incest, not homosexuality. If both parties were adult and consenting and aware of any genetical risks beared by their eventual children, I would say: let them!
-What about the cases of people who like to thief others?
Theft is illegal and has nothing whatsoever to do with homosexuality.
-What about the cases of people who like to not only take drugs but spread them also, one way or another?
If the drug is considered illegal by your legal system, then it is illegal for them to do so. It should be tolerated if the harm they do does not exceed the positive effects (consider the different legal status of smoke, alcohol, weed, coffee and cocaine).
-What about the cases of people who carry guns like it's all over Western Cowboy films again?
Statistics about countries where it is legal to do so (e.g. the USA) compared with statstics of countries where it is not legal to do so would tell us more.
-What about the cases of people who enjoy group sex?
Yeah, what about them? Is it illegal to have group sex or to masturbate? :confused:
-What about the cases of people who constantly bully other people around?
They should be disciplined, as their conduct, while not techically illegal, is morally reprehensible.
-What about the cases of people who take money in order to sell out themselves and other people/companies/whatever?
I'm not entirely sure what you are referring to here ...
-What about the cases of people who cheat on their families sexually and in other ways?
Such a behaviour is certainly morally reprehensible and might even be literally illegal in some countries. I would argue that the problem is not the cheating in itself, but the situation underlying it: what is wrong in the family to make the wife or husband go to another for sexual or emotional satisfaction? The cheating in itself is normally not the cause but a consequence of preceding problems: no more love, economical problems, personality crisis etc. Mostly these happen in cases where the partners didn't really thin kthrough their relation. Moreover, when in an early stage, before wedding and children, they cause very little harm.
-What about the cases of people who "make" sex to animals?
If they actually like it ... and the animal is treated appropriately ... well, I'd say let them! Seriously, I am refraining from calling this "unnatural". Mankind has done many and extremely unnatural things in its evolution. One drive has always been the maximalisation of pleasure and the minimalisation of pain. If zoofilia (sex with animals) gives pleasure, well, let them be.
-What about the cases of people who enjoy being sexually abused or abuse others?
I would say that the same applies as in the case of incest: adult, consenting parties with knowledge of the risks involved. I suppose that society could impose some limit on the injuries inflicted at that point beyond which the normal everyday functioning of the succubus/a would be seriously impaired. Moreover, most kind of abuse is moral abuse, as in debasement etc. Phisical sadomasochism taken to the level of physical injury is a pleasure share by a very small minority.
-What about this and that?

I don't know about this and that, but the point in question is why society would prohibit the homosexual couples to obtain the same civil status as heterosexual couples. You didn't really provide reasons for you earlier point ("it's not natural") but gave examples of other behaviour considered unacceptable. I think those examples are wrongly chosen: in almost all of them there are physical risks (genetically weak offspring, physical and mental injury though drug abuse, higher risk of violent death through bearing of firearms,etc.). In the case of homosexual civil marriage none of these apply: homosexual couples already exist, they do not harm each other but love each other, they do not damage society, but simply care or each other, have friends, go to school, work, etc. What is the problem? Just regulate an already existing status quo by providing the relevant laws. We all pursue happiness and one of the limits we encounter in that pursuit are the rights of our fellow humans. Why do we want to stand in the way of homosexual happiness? Move out of the way!

You said it would not be natural: well, is wearing clothes natural? living in cities? would you want us back naked up the trees? Is monogamy natural? What is "natural"? Humans aren't natural at all: we shape nature according to our wishes, even our own nature. We have evolved customs and pleasures which make us far from natural. Where would you draw a line? Would you relly go so far as to say that some people are not human? We have done that in the past: negroes, jews, etc. have been severely discriminated. What if your doughter/son ahd come home with a black or a jewish person there and then? Would you have shunned her/him? WE have accepted those unions in the end because we realised it was the right thing to do: no barrier should exist. We now face the next hurdle: homosexual marriage. i see no reason to prohibit it. Do you?

There has been talk about children: what about children? Homosexual coupes cannot have children by conventional means. Other means exist. What would be resons to deny them to make use of those means? Do we fear the children would be educated badly, wrongly, grow up as perverts? Children from heterosexual couples already do so, but it is mostly children from "broken families" who do so: orphans, children whose parents neglect them, fomr parents who break up, who beat each other and their children, who have a drinking or drug problem, etc. On average, gay couples have thought longer and harder about living together and wouldn't do so if they were not really determined and sure and in love, seeing the opposition they commonly face. I would think that they would provide a loving and stable environment for children and I do not see any reason to think their children will grow up any more wrongly that children of so-called regular couples.
If you think teasin is tha main problem, then you are giving a very bad reason to prohibit gay unions and adoption rights, as the teasing and shunning is done by very nearsighted, closeminded people. THEY are the problem, not homosexuals.
 
Homosexuals ARE the problem... No matter how good you are trying to color THAT problem :rolleyes:

Paint it... Color it... PhotoShop it... Homosexuality IS a problem... Both physical and psychological... And if you want to discuss in a simple, everyday way:
:mad: One's behind is a body tool to drop stuff from inside and certainly NOT to stick things in it :mad: You wanna get simple as hell? Male+Female=Right... Anything else is BS and should stay BS... Instead of rationalize everything humans do, like you did in your post, you should REALLY get over it... NO WAY how you want to support gay plus other BS stuff that humans do, IT AIN'T right... Both physical and psychological... Just because some messed up minds want to do this and that and just because it is their civil "right" to do so or just because they are grown up we MUST let them do so? BS... Absolute BS... I suppose Bin Laden or whatever this guy called, just because he was grown up and all his people were grown up, they had the right to cause that doomsday... Or Bush just because he had the power was right to let hell on earth :rolleyes:

Repeat after me X times (where X = infinity):
--> Gay stuff = AIN'T right! <--
--> Rationalizing BS that grown humans do (with rights or not) = AIN'T right! <--

I may me stubborn on gay BS but at least :mad: I ain't sticking in mine or anyone's else behinds stuff :mad: wither is my right or not! *spits from disgust even on the idea*

*spits again and promises that will not post in this gay "thread" again*

* Thanks bobw, for... you know why ;) *
 
Hulkaros please calm down, I don't like you when you are angry! :)

I do not want to provoke you and I am not trying to offend you. I do not want to turn this thread into a flame war. However, I must say that you seem to have a very limited view of homosexual love. Is love for you identical with sex? Love is much more than simple physical sexuality and sex is much more than penetration. Do you really think that male homosexual couples can only find pleasure or satisfaction by anal penetration? What about female homosexual couples?

Please let's keep this limited to the topic at hand: legalisation of homosexual marriage. Please Hulkaros and others: do not use false comparisons that lead off-topic. Zoofilia and drugs have nothing to do with homosexuality and neither have Bin-Laden and Bush.

You may call it rationalisations, but I am just trying to reason here, as in giveing reasons pro gay marriage. i have not yet heard any convincing arguments contra. If you really want to claim that homosexuality is a disease, I would like to hear you demonstrate it or at least tell me WHY you think so. Remember a twohundred years a go we considered coloured people unhuman and denied them most fundamental rights, hundred years ago we considered women inferior and denied them many findamental rights (to vote, to own property, to inherit, to sign contracts etc.), now we are denying gay couples some fundamental rights ... can't you see that the grounds and reasons are the same and invalid in all cases? What good reasons are there for discrimination of any kind?
 
Cat said:
Zoofilia and drugs have nothing to do with homosexuality and neither have Bin-Laden and Bush.

That sentence will live with me for all time. Hilarious! :D

How you managed to type that and keep it serious, I've no idea.

Hats off to you, Cat!

Cat said:
... Remember a two hundred years a go we considered coloured people unhuman and denied them most fundamental rights, hundred years ago we considered women inferior and denied them many fundamental rights...

World of difference and terrible example...
 
Cat, an honest question, would you give a gay couple a child ahead of a hetero-sexual couple in an adoption situation? There is already a waiting list a mile long in Ireland with committed and loving hetero couples hoping to adopt. i just don't see why we should twist technology, morality and biology to please gay people, no matter how stable and committed their relationship is. Octane mentioned that this all smacks of PC BS and I have to agree. It is unfortunate that gay couples cannot conceive naturally but what can I say? Humans ain't built to allow gay reproduction!
 
I'm not saying that we should give precedence to homosexuals above heterosexuals, but giving them the same civil rights. First of all, marriage. Adoption is a separate issue, the relevant authorities must decide whether a couple is fit or not for adoption. All I say is that homosexuality alone is not a sufficient reason to deny rights such as marriage and adoption. There is no "twisting" of anything going on. There are technologies to help couples that cannot conceive: the reason for which they cannot conceive is irrelevant. I am not twisting morality: what is immoral about love? And I am certainly not twisting biology: this is just another way to say something would be unnatural. Most of human behaviour can be considered unnatural. I am not saying this to please gay people or to bathe myself in political correctness: I know gay people, good friends of mine. They are perfectly normal, sane, intelligent persons, not depraved, immoral monsters. I see no reason to deny them either marriage or adoption.

Humans aren't built for a lot of things, including flying and standing upright: so?
 
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