Robin Williams' Plan for the USA

[diablojota]

Sorry, I'm just going by repots I've read (from many sources).

From what I've read, people were asked when leaving the polls as to what the most important factor was when choosing who they were going to vote for in the presidential election. The choices given were: moral values, terrorism, iraq, the economy. More people gave 'moral values' as their answer than any of the other issues, and most people who gave that answer said the had voted for Bush. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3973197.stm

What amuses/amazes/worries me is that people seem to be more interested in electing a president who will help stop abortions and gay marriages (things that don't actually have any impact on their own lives - except for getting them all worked up about it) than they are in electing one who will help rebuild the economy, or help build peace in the middle east, for example.

Yes, Moral Values have always been an issue with the American people. There are many problems at home with regards to family values. Single parent households and the like. Abortions (I am pro-choice) are a big topic as many people view this stance as murder. I understand their point of view, and this is important. Bush is also an image of good family values. His story of how he and his wife met and fell in love is very good. He doesn't have these "affairs" popping up all over the place. He also does not have a record of divorce and marrying wealthy women...
Now, these polls are also a bunch of bunk anyway. Check how and where the stats were collected as the can vary greatly based on the geographic location. Many church going americans believe that strong moral values are required in our nation and they should be upheld by our president, and so far he's been much more clear on his stand than Kerry. These people do feel that these issues do affect their lives, greatly. As stated, many people feel that having an abortion is similar to murder.
As for the economy, it isn't that bad. I know many people who are getting jobs (more so than back in 2001). The stock market is holding well. I feel much better with the stock market being as stable as it is versus the dramatic increases of the late 90s. That is dangerous. But I don't see any indications that Bush and the rest of the government isn't trying to rebuild the economy.
People are also extremely in favor of Tort reform which was a huge issue on the republican platform.
The Middle East is a difficult topic. Not one that I am really all that interested in getting involved in discussing. There is definitely a fissure in people's views (i.e. Treatment of women, democracy, etc.).

 

[lnoelstorr]

That's where we Europeans are wrong lnoelstorr. They _did_ choose Bush because he 'helps build peace in the middle east'.

Well, from surveys I've seen recently, including that one, it seemed people in America thought Kerry would do a better job than Bush in Iraq.

I guess in terms of wider middle east peace then it's not so clear as to who Americans think would be better at the job.

 

[diablojota]

Well, from surveys I've seen recently, including that one, it seemed people in America thought Kerry would do a better job than Bush in Iraq.

I guess in terms of wider middle east peace then it's not so clear as to who Americans think would be better at the job.

Yet again, don't trust surveys. Make sure you find out whom they asked, where the asked, and how many people they asked. If you ask this question in the New England states only, you will find that these people favor Kerry more any way, and would respond in this manner.

Surveys are bunk. I only really pay close attention to them if they produce their target groups...

 

[g/re/p]

There is a passage in the bible (Jeremiah 1:4-5) where god speaks to jeremiah: "Jeremiah, before I formed you in your mother's womb, I knew you.Before you were even born, I set you apart and ordained you to be a prophet to the nations"

Many people site this verse as thier reason for objecting to abortion, and i tend to agree with them (no, i am not a bible thumper) BUT, the bible also teaches that god gave us all
free will, so it still remains a personal choice as far as i am concerned - no one else should be able to make the
decision for you.

 

[Decado]

And the very same people that follows every word in the bible, neglect to see that fundamentalists and people they call "terrorists" just follows every word in their religious texts. they should get together instead and have some fun. they have a lot in common.

 

[diablojota]

And yes Decado, this is a problem. Those who believe too literally in their religious texts. I think it is important for people to have something that guides them, and defines right and wrong (i.e. Bible, etc.), but it is another thing to take what these mean absolutely literally.
However, what you don't see from the people who literally believe in the text of the Bible vs. those who believe in every word from the Koran (or similar book) blowing up people in the streets, suicide bombings, and the like.

 

[bbloke]

However, what you don't see from the people who literally believe in the text of the Bible vs. those who believe in every word from the Koran (or similar book) blowing up people in the streets, suicide bombings, and the like.

Oooh, I think we have to be careful there. Christian fundamentalists have been implicated in violent attacks on abortion clinics, for instance. There are also terror groups in Europe which are allegedly Christian and yet carry out indiscriminate attacks. And, worldwide, we get these sorts of stories:


"Christians massacre hundreds of Muslims
~~article_author~~ Reuters
Wednesday, May 05, 2004
YELWA, Nigeria Hundreds of Muslims were killed by Christian militiamen in the latest outbreak of ethnic fighting, a senior police officer said Tuesday. Mutilated and charred bodies still remained in the main street of Yelwa, a remote market town in central Nigeria."
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1129665/posts



"Muslims in Ambon have also come under attack during Ramadan. The Ambon branch of the Gema Khadijah Muslim women's organization reported on December 27 (Ramadan 19) that refugees in the Al-Fatah mosque had been attacked by a Christian mob. The previous day, the report said, a boy had had died after a mob had skinned him alive. Several mosques have been burnt."

"Indonesia's Republika newspaper, one of the few in the country to report Muslim affairs accurately, said on January 4 that "the worst and most heartbreaking tragedy has occurred in North Maluku on December 28, 1999. No less than 800 Muslim men in three villages in the district of Tobelo, Halmahera, were massacred in a single night, while the women were raped in the streets.""

"He also told the Independent, of London, that he had seen "Christians dragging decapitated Muslim bodies through the streets outside his office"."
http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/sea00/maluku.htm



I really don't want to go down the road of singling out Islam, as many Muslims I have met have been amongst the most peaceful people I know, and Islam, despite the way it is portrayed in the West, is not actually a violent religion. Terrorism is not an Islamic phenomenon, and we have had to live with a fair amount of it, from non-Islamic groups, in Europe over the years. I think the links with terrorism in the Middle East are often more about the utter desperation people feel, where hope seems very lacking in abundance. The causes of that desperation are another matter.

 

[MDLarson]

i agree that abortion should be a womans choice, and that
it is none of the governments damn business - but i personally think it is morally wrong to abort a viable fetus.

And this would be John Kerry's position.

I think the problem with this statement is that the individual quoting it is trying to appear as a moral person and at the same time not wanting to offend anybody's 'rights'. I think that personal moral values are meaningless until they make a difference.

John Kerry voted 6 times to keep partial-birth abortion legal, and yet he still believes it is wrong to get a partial-birth abortion. Some might say that Kerry can successfully separate personal 'religous beliefs' from politics. I say that his moral position is meaningless until he can back it up with action.

If an unmarried couple makes a choice in the bedroom and it happens to produce a baby, well, I guess we should just kill the baby to avoid an inconvenient situation.

Arrghh... I just can't understand the thinking of pro-choice people on this one. The choice in most cases was made in the bedroom. Choices have consequences. The baby has a right to be born. End of story.

 

[diablojota]

Okay, I should've been a bit more careful in my statement.
I should clarify my response a bit. I was speaking more on behalf of things inside the US...

 

[bbloke]

Okay, I should've been a bit more careful in my statement.
I should clarify my response a bit. I was speaking more on behalf of things inside the US...

OK, I understand. But, just to be clear, I'd still say that these things do go on inside the US too, just on a different scale and for different reasons.


"Violent protests, in the form of arson, firebombing, and vandalism started in the early 1970's in the U.S. Then, as now, most of the violence appears to be the acts of religiously-motivated criminals acting alone. However, recent cases involving the assassination and attempted murder of abortion providers in both the U.S. and Canada have shown that perpetrators appear to be sheltered by a network of sympathizers."
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_viol.htm



"Abortion clinics, providers and workers often live in fear of Christian activists. Only recently captured, Eric Rudolph has been charged with a deadly bombing at the Olympics and with two other blasts in Atlanta at abortion clinics. Although the choice of the Olympics as a target may sound strange, it must be remembered that many far-right Christians regard anything which smacks of internationalism - the UN, the IMF, and the Olympics - as tools of Satan. The U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms regards the other recent attempted bombings and attempted arson attacks at Alabama abortion clinics to represent a heightened threat to life and property."

"When Muslim extremists place a bomb at a bus station in Israel, it is justifiably regarded as an act committed by "Muslim Terrorists." When are we going to wake up and recognize that similar acts here are being committed by "Christian Terrorists?""
http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/christian/blfaq_viol_abortion.htm



"During the heyday of the far right, in the early and mid '80s, the racialist underground often attacked abortion. Bob Mathews, leader of the terror gang known as The Order, saw abortion as the suicide of the white race. Jim Wickstrom, the Christian Identity leader of another underground terror group called the Posse Comitatus, ranted against Jewish doctors and nurses who engaged in abortion. Posse screeds claimed the space program was part of a plot to get rid of aborted fetuses by blasting them into space.

More recently, the federal government's storming of the Branch Davidians at their Waco compound brought the two groups together. Waco convinced the racialist right and fundamentalist Christians to temporarily set aside their differences, and join together in an attack on the federal government. Abortion was one area on which most groups could agree.

Last year the Buchanan campaign temporarily united a wide range of prolife, militia, and other far-right activists behind the conservative journalist's quest for the Republican nomination. Abortion was one of the principal issues that helped bring together the disparate Buchanan followers. Larry Pratt, a top official in the Buchanan campaign and well known in Washington as a right wing operative, was forced to resign when he was revealed to have addressed far-right racialist gatherings. Pratt is sometimes credited with helping to found the militia movement."
http://www.buildingequality.us/ifas/fw/9703/bombs.html


(Note: I'm not taking a stance on abortion here, just citing it as a context for Christian-based violence, nor am I attacking Christians, being a believer myself! I just wanted to point out my concerns, whatever the circumstances and regardless of which "groups" or nations are involved.)

 

[diablojota]

Okay, you are correct. I stand corrected. I will now modify my statement slightly.
The Christian nut-jobs don't blow up things/themselves so frequently as those following other religious beliefs. I will not say they don't do it, but there are much fewer extreme christians who go blow themselves up than the others. You don't hear about christian militants using car bombs or suicide bombers in near as much frequency. (And I do mean before the Iraq war as well).

 

[diablojota]

And this would be John Kerry's position.

I think the problem with this statement is that the individual quoting it is trying to appear as a moral person and at the same time not wanting to offend anybody's 'rights'. I think that personal moral values are meaningless until they make a difference.

John Kerry voted 6 times to keep partial-birth abortion legal, and yet he still believes it is wrong to get a partial-birth abortion. Some might say that Kerry can successfully separate personal 'religous beliefs' from politics. I say that his moral position is meaningless until he can back it up with action.

If an unmarried couple makes a choice in the bedroom and it happens to produce a baby, well, I guess we should just kill the baby to avoid an inconvenient situation.

Arrghh... I just can't understand the thinking of pro-choice people on this one. The choice in most cases was made in the bedroom. Choices have consequences. The baby has a right to be born. End of story.

Yes, I agree to an extent. However, I would rather have a fetus in the first tri-mester be aborted rather than being born in a world where it isn't wanted. These children typically grow up in an unloved family, have either difficulty in relationships, become drug users, or even turn to crime.
There are most certainly valid arguments to both sides of this issue. However, if you can decide whether to take your child off of a ventilator (after a serious accident, or something similar) and have them die, I also think a woman should be able to choose whether to abort a fetus if she does not have the means to provide for it, or even wants the baby. I think bringing the child into the world when it isn't wanted is far worse than aborting it. You see so many kids are still in adoption agencies or in Foster homes...

 

[Jeffo]

I pity the American people. They'll have a lot of work to do after four more years of bushisms. The administration doesn't even seem to _get_ how much they're hurting the image of the USA in the world. Four more years, and I'm pretty sure - if they go on walking the Earth like an elephant in porcelaine - we'll see more and more reasons for terrorism, and thus more terrorism. America has become a liability to the world. Something must be done...

yeah because the image of the USA would have been so much better with kerry

</sarcasm>

Edit:
I thought i would put in a bit more here before people bashed me.

I am not saying that everything bush is doing/has done is the best thing that could have been done. I just think that kerry would have made an even bigger mockery out of the US than clinton did.

 

[lnoelstorr]

Surveys are bunk. I only really pay close attention to them if they produce their target groups...

Well, why do you not look up the sources then to check their target groups?

If you did you'd find they were carried out by Edison Media Research, as part of the exit polls they carried out across all 50 states and DC.

Full results are here:

http://www.edisonresearch.com/home/archives/2004/11/view_election_2.html


They're quite interesting.

 

[Zammy-Sam]

Arrghh... I just can't understand the thinking of pro-choice people on this one. The choice in most cases was made in the bedroom. Choices have consequences. The baby has a right to be born. End of story.

One could also say: masturbation is now forbidden by law. Every sperm has the right to fertilize an egg!
A living body truly deserves to live. But is a non-breathing baby already one? Is a sperm or an egg already one?
Shouldn't we allow the mother to decide whether she wants to go over the 9 months of pregancy, 1 year baby-break and possibly end up in a financial fiasco and loose her job? We gotta face it, the state does not support couples with children that well. So, how can we dare to force a mother and a father to go through it?
And another fact: pregnancy does NOT mostly come by decisions in bedrooms. At least not such that turn to the wish of abortions. And no one can forbid a couple to not have sex if they don't want to have a Baby. Beside the case of negligence, no obviation is 100% trustful.
This truely is pure intolerance to my eyes.

 

[diablojota]

Well, why do you not look up the sources then to check their target groups?

If you did you'd find they were carried out by Edison Media Research, as part of the exit polls they carried out across all 50 states and DC.

Full results are here:

http://www.edisonresearch.com/home/archives/2004/11/view_election_2.html


They're quite interesting.

Hmmm.... Let's see. 13,660 respondants. That is hardly what I call a good cross section of the 100 million + people who voted. Especially since people get to choose whether or not to partake in the exit polls.
Plus it gives no geographical breakdown of where they got the number of responses and so on...
Sorry still doesn't convince me.

 

[lnoelstorr]

I think it's much better to have an abortion, than for a mother to carry a child she doesn't want and have it born to a family that doesn't want it.

 

[lnoelstorr]

Hmmm.... Let's see. 13,660 respondants. That is hardly what I call a good cross section of the 100 million + people who voted. Especially since people get to choose whether or not to partake in the exit polls.
Plus it gives no geographical breakdown of where they got the number of responses and so on...
Sorry still doesn't convince me.

You can click on each state to see the figures for each one.

Also, each one includes a statistic of how many people questioned lived in big cities, small cities, semi-rural, rural, etc...


I'm not sure what it doesn't convince you off. It's supposed to show trends, not exact statistics. It certainly convinces me that there are a worrying number of people across the US who think "moral issues" are the most important factor in picking a president.

 

[Viro]

I think it's much better to have an abortion, than for a mother to carry a child she doesn't want and have it born to a family that doesn't want it.

I think it's better that people learn to be responsible in the first place and realise that sex does have consequences. People should realise that a baby is quite different from an unwanted pet or something expendable. Even with an unwanted pet, you don't just decide to put it down when you're tired of it, you normally give it away.

Adoption would be preferable to abortion since even in the UK, there are many couples who want to have children but aren't able to for various reasons. These couples would be more than happy to adopt any child that is considered 'unwanted'.

 

[Viro]

One could also say: masturbation is now forbidden by law. Every sperm has the right to fertilize an egg!

That's taking it a bit too far, Zammy. If that were the case, menstrual cycles would be deemed illegal, since all those unfertilized eggs are wasted each month.