Robin Williams' Plan for the USA

Zammy-Sam said:
One could also say: masturbation is now forbidden by law. Every sperm has the right to fertilize an egg!
A living body truly deserves to live. But is a non-breathing baby already one? Is a sperm or an egg already one?
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Human life begins at conception. Yes, a non-breathing baby is a life that deserves to live. A sperm or egg are not.
Zammy-Sam said:
And another fact: pregnancy does NOT mostly come by decisions in bedrooms. At least not such that turn to the wish of abortions.
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I refuse to believe that.
 
What if the girl is raped?
Do you think she should carry that child?

i'm a big fan of Descartes, cogito ergo sum. life is not life until it is realising it and is thus created by its experience and analysis of its surroundings.

therefore an unborn featus got no perception of life and is therefor not deprived of anything were the pregnancy to be stoped.

But i realise that not everybody likes descartes and that a religious person could argue that the child is deprived of its future, a concept that does not exist outside religion.

peace.
 
MDLarson said:
And this would be John Kerry's position.
I think the problem with this statement is that the individual quoting it is trying to appear as a moral person and at the same time not wanting to offend anybody's 'rights'. I think that personal moral values are meaningless until they make a difference.
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Personal moral values are just that - personal.
They only become meaningless if they are not followed when put to the test. I believe it is morally wrong to abort a viable fetus and would never agree to my wife doing so - this is not
a meaningless value.

The fact that i respect other people's right to choose is based on my belief that god gives us all the choice of freewill -
it most certainly does not conflict with my objections to abortion.

Moral values are not always necessarily based on religious beliefs, but in this case mine are.
 
Decado said:
What if the girl is raped?
Do you think she should carry that child?
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That's a different case. How many babies are aborted because they belong to victims of rape cases? How many are just aborted because of lack of care when frolicking in the bed?
 
MDLarson said:
Human life begins at conception. Yes, a non-breathing baby is a life that deserves to live. A sperm or egg are not.
I refuse to believe that.
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Does someone has the right to force you (if you were a woman) to go through 9months of pregnancy eventhough you don't want this? I would call this intentional physical injury. Does someone has the right to force you not to work for almost 2 years and endanger your current work or educational status?
You were talking about consequences of decisions. If it was a decision, I'd agree with you. Decisions have consequences! Since it mostly isn't such, I think no one has the right to judge on this but the ppl who are affected by it.
I don't understand there is so much - forgive my honesty - blind morality in such cases and in other cases none at all. Why don't we care about african babies dying of hunger and the mothers who DO WANT them. No, we concentrate on sexual accidents. I really don't get this..

PS.: The example with the sperm was not very suitable. I was trying to express the complexity of the definition of life. I don'T think a fetus meets those criteria.
 
Maybe the root of this discusion lies on the point either couples did decide to get a baby and then refuse to bring it to life or if that pregnancy was a sexual accident. I believe it's the last point and would be very surprised if someone could prove me wrong.
 
Viro said:
I think it's better that people learn to be responsible in the first place and realise that sex does have consequences.
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Indeed, and another problem with the Bush administration is that they are in favour of abstinence only sex education, rather than teaching teenagers about the benefits of contraception for when their desires really do get the better of them.


People should realise that a baby is quite different from an unwanted pet or something expendable.
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People do realise that, that is why they opt for abortion in an unwanted pregnancy, They realise that a baby is a big issue, and isn't something expendable, so they decide not to have a baby.


Adoption would be preferable to abortion since even in the UK, there are many couples who want to have children but aren't able to for various reasons. These couples would be more than happy to adopt any child that is considered 'unwanted'.
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So a mother should go through 9 months of carrying a baby, that is then going to be given up for adoption, and suffer everything that means for her, whilst at the same time probably having a negative impact on the developing baby as it is suspected that a mother's emotional state can affect a developing baby, and also because she may not necessarily take the usual precautions a mother should?

Oh, and dammit, I said I wasn't going to get into a debate on these issues!!
 
well, as a biotechnologist, and without fear of being wrong, either a sperm could be consider a life... have you ever seen it in a microscope? damn, it runs like hell!!! and abortion is not only a way to get rid of an error done in the bedroom, consider that there are malformations and genetic pathologies that doesn't kill the baby, but result in a huge cost therapy for all the duration of life... is it fair for a woman to risk her life, because the born of a child isn't a 100% secure practice, for a child who would suffer for the rest of his life and would suck like a vampire all the money that she has?
also about adoption, not every couple wants to have an adopted child, in some cases they want _their_ child...
 
Planned Parenthood:
Why do women have abortions?

Women who report having abortions generally give three reasons for doing so: three-quarters say that having a child would interfere with work, school, or other responsibilities. About two-thirds report that they cannot afford to have a child. Half do not want to be a single parent or are experiencing relationship problems with their husband or partner. And each year, about 14,000 women have abortions because they become pregnant as a result of rape or incest.
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This website has this to say:
Studies conducted by Planned Parenthood's Guttmacher Institute indicate that two consenting and fertile adults have only a 3 percent chance of pregnancy from an act of intercourse. They also indicate there are factors involved in a rape which further reduce these chances for rape victims. The Guttmacher Institute says 14,000 abortions per year are due to rape or incest, which amounts to just over 1 percent of all abortions. Other studies show that pregnancies due to rape are much rarer than is generally thought, perhaps as few as one in a thousand cases. Furthermore, since conception doesn't occur immediately after intercourse, pregnancy can be prevented in the great majority of rape cases by medical treatment that removes the semen before an ovum can be fertilized.
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Conclusion:
MOST ABORTING WOMEN ARE NOT RAPED.
 
well, without shouting, don't know about you, but i'm 25 like you, and the money I get in a month at work is just enough for me to survive, so I don't think it's a good idea to have a child and making him live in hunger...
and i intend rape also for a 14 years old girl forced to get drunk and then -oh, I guess how?- find herself pregnant the day after.....
 
big letters.
wow. 14 thousand. and if only one percent lead to pregnancy, that means that about 1.400 000 girls are raped every year in the US.
that is sick.
 
MDLarson, do you think law should be allowed to force a woman to go through the pregancy considering all the riscs she has to go through?
 
Come now lets everyone sing Monty Python's classic Hymn, "Every Sperm is Sacred".

(It is quite good ;-))
 
Decado said:
big letters.
wow. 14 thousand. and if only one percent lead to pregnancy, that means that about 1.400 000 girls are raped every year in the US.
that is sick.
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If somebody still believes that most abortions are performed on rape victims, let me know and I'll make it bold. I've already tried to make is as big as possible. :rolleyes:

And where do you get your 1% statistic? I found some myths that rape CAN'T produce pregnancy, and also that "one-offs" (like rape) are more likely to produce pregnancy.

Zammy-Sam said:
MDLarson, do you think law should be allowed to force a woman to go through the pregancy considering all the riscs she has to go through?
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Which women and what risks? I find your terminology interesting. "Force a woman to go through the pregnancy", as if it's torture or something. Most mothers are very excited at the prospect.
 
"And where do you get your 1% statistic? I found some myths that rape CAN'T produce pregnancy, and also that "one-offs" (like rape) are more likely to produce pregnancy."

I got it from the text Viro was quoting. kind of. it said that "fertile adults have only a 3 percent chance of pregnancy from an act of intercourse. They also indicate there are factors involved in a rape which further reduce these chances for rape victims."

i know i could just as easily have said 2%.

and it isnt the point if most unwanted pregnancies have their origin in rape. even if it was only one in a billion there still should not be a law that forces the women to carry it.
 
MDLarson said:
Which women and what risks? I find your terminology interesting. "Force a woman to go through the pregnancy", as if it's torture or something. Most mothers are very excited at the prospect.
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Oh come on! Where are you living? Any woman, even those that are hardly waiting for their Baby, is scared of going through it but looks at the end of the road: holding their Baby - their own flesh and blood - in their arms. And now imagine a woman that is not even happy with the end.. In the process of 9 months pregancy there is a lot of pain involved. You are very reduced in things you were used to do. For a bunch of woman out there, this is a heavy limitation. And now let's even take a look at the things after: A friend of mine told me, that since he and his wife got their Baby, they are spending approximately 300Euro more every months and he is not buying her any fancy stuff even. No state will cover these expenses! They have very less sleep for 1 year after the pregancy, they had to reduce their working time to care for the Baby since they can't afford a nany and they don't have any one like the grandma who is hardly waiting for taking care for it..
Now, do you still think the state should have the right to force couples to go through it?
I understand your point that there should be no turning back once you decide on something. But in this case, no matter if decided or not, this is not right and slightly even hurts the womans rights, how I find. Women are no Baby-machines that have to give birth.
 
Of _course_ a woman should have the right to abort. And _of course_ she should be aware of the consequences that might have - as well as of the consequences to have a child might have.

I don't understand how people can be for freedom and at the same time want to force people _not_ to have free choice and free will. I mean: Come on! Even Christian belief should let the others do what they want. They don't go to heaven in your belief? So what! They're allowed to have their own beliefs - even according to the constitution of the USA. And if they believe that they're still going to heaven, and even if they're wrong at it, they should be allowed to walk down the wrong path. Because you've ALWAYS gotta remember that it's the wrong path only in YOUR belief and not theirs...

Allowing women to have an abortion does not mean in any way that you or your wife does HAVE to have an abortion.

And believe me, there ARE enough reasons for abortions. And quite surely, each and every case should be carefully handled. I'm not for abortions in cases where women just were careless in bed. I'm for education in those cases, even psychological help if needed. But in those cases where it's important _not_ to have that child (rape was mentioned, financial situations were mentioned...), a woman should have the right to get an abortion. If you're against the freedom of choice of the individual, and you're for bringing 'freedom to Iraq', your understanding of freedom is severely flawed. I'd say you're elitary in a very, very wrong way.
 
OK, I am a guy. I don't understand what a woman goes through in pregnancy. But when you folks talk about child-birth being a burden FORCED on by the LAW... man... we are in 2 completely different worlds here.

The only issue I care about is whether or not abortion is MURDER. I believe it is, therefore the only area I am willing to give ground on is in rape cases or cases were the mother's life is in danger. ALL other pregnancies (including poor financial circumstances) should be carried to full term.

What we are talking about is a HUMAN LIFE. Not just a "cluster of cells" or some dehumanizing equivalent. I am going to keep hammering that away, because I believe that is irrefutable, and that is what drives me.

If I am "elitary" for wanting to protect the innocent unborn, you'll just have to tolerate me.

Tolerate THIS.
abortion_on_quarter.jpg
 
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