What's your opinion about Macwarez?!

No, I just see a very interesting phenomen on these forums.
Here's a good recipe for a thread with over 100 replies:
-One Ed
-An Admiral or two
-1 PC user
-A couple of 30+ lines posts
-A few other well-known macosx.com posters
-1-3 strangers
Mix them all together, and... wheee!
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>>>Where's AppleWatcher? :rolleyes::D:p

AppleWatcher
 
Ok, true, out of pocket costs for starting a business aren't as simple as I made them out to be -- it was a severly abbreviated scenario of how one goes about it... I couldn't possibly explain, even in simple terms, how one goes about that and factoring costs and what-not in this forum -- it would simply go on too long. My point was that a poor college student with less than $10 in his pocket needn't venture into the business world expecting to use the same software that large corporations do. You have more money, you are able to afford more expensive stuff. You have less money, you'll have to do with... well, less.

And I think we are stuck on our definitions of a capitalist society. I don't think the government is there to provide in that sense. I think the government is there to make sure that Joe Microsoft doesn't pull out the brass knuckless and beat Joe Regular into bankruptcy when Joe regular isn't looking. The goverment, in my opinion, is there to sit and observe dutifully with arms folded until someone does something wrong. This is only in a capitalistic sense, though -- let's not get started on welfare, health care, etc... I have different opinions on those.

I think the goverment should provide an ATMOSPHERE that is conducive and hospitable to business. I don't think the government is under any obligation to help Joe Poor become Joe Rich, or Joe Smallbiz become Joe Bigbiz. That is up to the respective people and talents and brains to determine how far they wish or can go. I think the government is there to ensure that Joe Poor can make a living without Joe Rich taking over and putting him out of business. Likewise and similarly, Joe Smallbiz should be able to do a profitable business at the same time Joe Bigbiz is, in the same area of business (although the profit Smallbiz sees will be smaller than the profit Bigbiz sees -- capitalism!) The goverment is there to make sure Joe Bigbiz doesn't attain that name by stepping on and squashing Joe Smallbizs along the way. That's my view.

Maybe we do see this similarly -- and we were just approaching it from VERY different angles. I just live to believe that people should take care of themselves -- if you can't afford Photoshop, don't pirate it. Don't whine about it. Don't pout. Change something in your life -- do something differently -- work harder -- make more money -- then go out and buy it. If Adobe wanted EVERYONE to have PhotoShop, or their target market was EVERYONE with a computer, they'd have priced it accordingly (how's a buck sound?). But, time, effort, and $700 worth of blood, sweat and tears went into developing it, and they're getting their due out of it.

I'm sure we'll all have different opinions about QuarkXPress... hehe... and I'll play the devil's advocate on that one, too -- I like Quark. I paid for it. Took me a year to save for it, but I got it and I like it. I wish it cost less, but it doesn't. Ho-hum, bummer. Can't get something for nothing these days. And I'm not going to enter into the InDesign/Pagemaker vs. Quark debate. I've got all three and like all three.
 
Originally posted by ElDiabloConCaca
Ok, true, out of pocket costs for starting a business aren't as simple as I made them out to be -- it was a severly abbreviated scenario of how one goes about it... I couldn't possibly explain, even in simple terms, how one goes about that and factoring costs and what-not in this forum -- it would simply go on too long. My point was that a poor college student with less than $10 in his pocket needn't venture into the business world expecting to use the same software that large corporations do. You have more money, you are able to afford more expensive stuff. You have less money, you'll have to do with... well, less.

And I think we are stuck on our definitions of a capitalist society. I don't think the government is there to provide in that sense. I think the government is there to make sure that Joe Microsoft doesn't pull out the brass knuckless and beat Joe Regular into bankruptcy when Joe regular isn't looking. The goverment, in my opinion, is there to sit and observe dutifully with arms folded until someone does something wrong. This is only in a capitalistic sense, though -- let's not get started on welfare, health care, etc... I have different opinions on those.

I think the goverment should provide an ATMOSPHERE that is conducive and hospitable to business. I don't think the government is under any obligation to help Joe Poor become Joe Rich, or Joe Smallbiz become Joe Bigbiz. That is up to the respective people and talents and brains to determine how far they wish or can go. I think the government is there to ensure that Joe Poor can make a living without Joe Rich taking over and putting him out of business. Likewise and similarly, Joe Smallbiz should be able to do a profitable business at the same time Joe Bigbiz is, in the same area of business (although the profit Smallbiz sees will be smaller than the profit Bigbiz sees -- capitalism!) The goverment is there to make sure Joe Bigbiz doesn't attain that name by stepping on and squashing Joe Smallbizs along the way. That's my view.

Maybe we do see this similarly -- and we were just approaching it from VERY different angles. I just live to believe that people should take care of themselves -- if you can't afford Photoshop, don't pirate it. Don't whine about it. Don't pout. Change something in your life -- do something differently -- work harder -- make more money -- then go out and buy it. If Adobe wanted EVERYONE to have PhotoShop, or their target market was EVERYONE with a computer, they'd have priced it accordingly (how's a buck sound?). But, time, effort, and $700 worth of blood, sweat and tears went into developing it, and they're getting their due out of it.

I'm sure we'll all have different opinions about QuarkXPress... hehe... and I'll play the devil's advocate on that one, too -- I like Quark. I paid for it. Took me a year to save for it, but I got it and I like it. I wish it cost less, but it doesn't. Ho-hum, bummer. Can't get something for nothing these days. And I'm not going to enter into the InDesign/Pagemaker vs. Quark debate. I've got all three and like all three.
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No, the Government SHOULD help Joe Poor (me) become Joe Rich... derr! :D
 
could you please start using the 'reply' button instead of the 'quote' button? or at least delete most of the quoting? it's a bit ugly like that, you're wasting my precious bandwidth.
 
Originally posted by theed


WHoooooaaaaah. I think we've found our sticking point in this argument. I was working under the premise that any government or economic system is supposed to be set up to best meet the needs of the people within it. This was an attempt to realize that potential. Truly, if this isn't capitalism's goal, I want out. Send me on a rocket to Mars to live in a biospheric bubble.


However, if my Dad wants to crop and brighten photos for personal use, I see no reason that he should have to use crap when a perfectly good product exists.
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Better start saving up for your rocket ticket. The apologists for capitalism claim that the "free market" will magically meet the needs of people within it, but this is not how it was "set up." The actual goal of a capitalist enterprise is to increase its profits. Period.
And tell your Dad to shell out $35 for GraphicConverter. Best damn shareware graphics program in the history of the Mac.
:D
 
Well, as long as we are assuming that the simplistic model of economics centered around supply and demand is the guiding principle of capitalism, then i would like to offer a simplistic example of proof that the computer industry in general charges way more than their products are worth. (supply and demand is 1st week material in an economics course - hardly begins to explain how economies work)

Here in the SF Bay Area, home of Silicon Valley and all those big name companies you know and love, as well as tens of thusands of other smaller biz's, the inflation rate is so bad that we have passed NYC as the most expensive place to live. Why is that?

It is because of the ridiculous amount of wealth generated by the computer/software/internet companies. How many of you can imagine spending half a million dollars for a 2-3 bedroom home with barely enough yard to surround the house? Oh, and that house is 30 - 50 years old or older. And to buy that house you have to bid against other buyers and hope yours is the top bid. (no basements) I live in one of the less desirable areas for industry types and our 3 br house is valued at almost $400,000 with a double lot (meaning we have almost as much yard as house).

now i know there is lots to argue with in this example but it is as valid as saying that supply and demand is the only principle of economic theory.

and last i checked our constitution or decleration of independence states that the government shall be "by the people, for the people", not by the businesses, for the businesses.:eek:
 
My Dad got suckered into buying a Compaq, the ONLY reason he shelled out for a PC instead of a Mac that I would have been far more supportive of, was that he's addicted to his little Magellan GPS. Magellan only does PC software. So my Dad buys a Compaq laptop, not bad for the price ... and 4 months and the purchase of a USB to serial dongle later, his GPS still doesn't work. He's given up trying an that. Everyone gave him the runaround. I can't determine if it's even a hardware or software issue, of if the issue lies in the GPS or the PC!

In short, he got suckered and ripped off. During that time though he's gotten his machine set up and pretty well moved into, and wouldn't like to move to another after finally getting comfortable on this. If he was on a mac I'd have lots of shareware that would be helpful. ... Not the case. If that cheap POS had ethernet I'd connect it to my mom's iMac (rev a running X) and let him do stuff that way. Again, no such love.

Oh, and Ed, are you a Ralph Nader fan?
 
Originally posted by Ed Spruiell
It is because of the ridiculous amount of wealth generated by the computer/software/internet companies. How many of you can imagine spending half a million dollars for a 2-3 bedroom home with barely enough yard to surround the house? Oh, and that house is 30 - 50 years old or older. And to buy that house you have to bid against other buyers and hope yours is the top bid. (no basements) I live in one of the less desirable areas for industry types and our 3 br house is valued at almost $400,000 with a double lot (meaning we have almost as much yard as house).

now i know there is lots to argue with in this example but it is as valid as saying that supply and demand is the only principle of economic theory.

and last i checked our constitution or decleration of independence states that the government shall be "by the people, for the people", not by the businesses, for the businesses.:eek:
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Isn't that somewhat intertwined with the supply and demand economic model? I mean, those houses are in desireable areas -- therefore, more money can be charged for those properties. People aren't FORCED to live there -- they could move to New Mexico and live for pennies compared to that.

Supply and demand isn't the ONLY pricinple of economic theory, but it is an important one. It does play a big factor in determining pricing of software. A company could pour their heart and soul into a piece of software, and if no one wanted it, they wouldn't be able to charge a ridiculous amount of money for it. They'd have to charge less, since the demand for the product is less...

PhotoShop may be worth $300 in software programming alone. But the demand for a high-end, graphic production program such as PhotoShop is high -- it stands pretty much alone in its category. PaintShopPro... Painter... none of them even come close to the robust, powerful PhotoShop. It is THE only alternative to itself. Now, charging more because of that principle may seem "monopolistic," but it's not -- monopolies aren't brought about by price-grouging or inflation -- those two things are a side effect of an existing monopoly. It's why we pay more for name-brand milk than the generic sitting next to it -- quality equals higher price.
 
Are you f'n serious? I'm not even sure what name brand milk IS!

Ed's example was within the supply and demand model. Supply and demand is not driving the price of software down to the point of being beneficial for the consumer. It's overpriced, and the surplus capital goes to those companies, which goes to those programmers, who now purchase everything at inflated prices, since they have little demand for their own capital, since it is in such great supply.

If the programmers are not getting paid in line with the rest of people, then something is wrong. Should we all be programmers since there is such great demand? (I hope you don't have issues finding a job in technology like many of the rest of us are at this time.) Despite the few rich people, there isn't actually high demand for tech people right now. The pay vs. need schism is brought about by monopoly and barrier to entry in the market. These things directly negate the happiness of supply and demand economics.

I'm waiting for a call to see if I got a job I've interviewed for. Moderate pay, nice benefits, one job opening in a tiny town, and I was up against 100+ other applicants for the same position. In normal times there'd be like 20 other people applying for the job. Not 100. It's an employers market, there are lots of tech people needing jobs.
 
I'm assuming you've got some sort of computer science degree, then... why did you get that degree? Because you love to program or because when you started on the degree, programmers were in high demand and getting paid ridiculous salaries? I'm still working on a C.S. degree for reason #2, but seriously thinking about switching to something LESS technical and more applicable in the real world, like a major in business and a minor in C.S.

Don't get me wrong -- supply and demand here -- I love computers/programming/design/etc., but the marketplace is so damn flooded with people like me that it sucks to even stand in line to apply somewhere. Plus, the salaries are coming down because there are TOO many people out there looking for the same position.

I forsee the entire software purchasing/licensing scheme changing here in the next decade because of this and all the reasons discussed in this thread. Hehe... no, I don't have a four-year degree in phychic powers, either, but hell... it's gotta change for these reasons. I see software companies keeping the data files of the actual program on THEIR servers, and customers purchasing licenses to use those programs and using them over the internet. Of course, digital pirates will find ways to "spoof" their licenses and use the programs illegally, but I think it would SERIOUSLY cut down on software piracy as it exists today -- ie, physically copying a CD and using that.

Kiss CDs and boxes and manuals goodbye. And we have the pirates to thank for it!
 
could you please start using the 'reply' button instead of the 'quote' button? or at least delete most of the quoting? it's a bit ugly like that, you're wasting my precious bandwidth.
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Hey, we've 18 (or 19 :D) pages! Do you think that is possible without quoting?!

AppleWatcher ;)
 
Hmm... This thread started out as a really nice discussion about warez. I think it might even have made some users think about what they're doing. Saying that you *have* to quote whole pages just to add your comment so this thread becomes big enough sounds silly. But if your intention on here is to created big threads, start one about 'Windows is better'. And add some reality to it, you'll have the longest thread in a year, I guess.
 
Originally posted by fryke
Hmm... This thread started out as a really nice discussion about warez. I think it might even have made some users think about what they're doing. Saying that you *have* to quote whole pages just to add your comment so this thread becomes big enough sounds silly. But if your intention on here is to created big threads, start one about 'Windows is better'. And add some reality to it, you'll have the longest thread in a year, I guess.
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I think you're adding to the length of the post complaining about the length of the post... ;)

Back ON topic -- where did we leave off? I was beginning to enjoy this thread! Never have I made so many enemies in one day! YEE-HA!

Let's see... who's pirated PhotoShop 7 beta and plans NEVER to pay for it? Who plans on pirating the final version of 7 when it's available and STILL never plans to pay for it? Who thinks they're justified in doing this to a great company like Adobe?
 
Ooh... you just said a word that chaps my friggin' hide every time I hear someone say it wrong. Too many times I've heard "warez" pronounced "WAR-ez" (two syllables, like the Hispanic name Juarez!) Hehe... I refrain from kindly explaining to them that it's an abbreviation for "softwares" and let them continue to humiliate themselves on their own.

At any rate, it's legal to use any "warez" from any "companiez" as long as you own a license! Now, "warez," as it's become commonly known to refer to pirated software, is not legal to use. Duh.

And yeah, I don't think your concience should get to you too much over using "warez" from Microsoft. But please, oh please, support Adobe and the other ass-bustin' companies that produce a quality product at a fair price.

Hehe... AND ALSO... please tell me you pronounce that "warez" with one syllable... please...
 
And yeah, I don't think your concience should get to you too much over using "warez" from Microsoft. But please, oh please, support Adobe and the other ass-bustin' companies that produce a quality product at a fair price.
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Owkay! But I still think Adobe is a little pricy :p;)

Watch my sign ;)


ApPLeWAtcHeR
 
Originally posted by AppleWatcher
Owkay! But I still think Adobe is a little pricy :p;)
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Grrr... I see we're never going to see eye-to-eye on this.

SOFTWARE is expensive! Not just Adobe's software... ALL software is generally expensive! Don't start me on shareware or anything -- nothing that can compete with PhotoShop is available through shareware -- maybe 2 or 3 programs that, together, can do SOME of the things PhotoShop can, but there is NOT a cheap alternative... why? Because it's impossible -- find someone who is willing to write a fully-featured alternative to PhotoShop and get paid peanuts for it... you won't. It's expensive stuff, my friend.
 
SOFTWARE is expensive! Not just Adobe's software... ALL software is generally expensive! Don't start me on shareware or anything -- nothing that can compete with PhotoShop is available through shareware -- maybe 2 or 3 programs that, together, can do SOME of the things PhotoShop can, but there is NOT a cheap alternative... why? Because it's impossible -- find someone who is willing to write a fully-featured alternative to PhotoShop and get paid peanuts for it... you won't. It's expensive stuff, my friend.
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ah....

AppleWorks
iMovie
iTunes
Mac OS X-'plugins'
MacGIMP

FREE :D

And that's why people use war-ez, I gues...
Because software(z :p) is expensive?

AppleWatcher
 
my thanks to El Diablo for setting me straight on pronunciation. I have been saying ware-ez. I know i am naive, but i had never even seen the word before i came to this site. i guess i should get out more.:p

of course i am still not sure i should trust anybody from Texas to tell me how to pronounce anything, but that's a different subject;) :D

oh, and thread length is determined by number of posts, not by how long the posts are. so stop quoting entire posts to just add one line. in fact just using the person's name will normally point people to whom you are replying.:)
 
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